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    If alcohol was never a man-made invention, would there be alcoholics ? Would alcoholism be a disease ? Do you think alcoholism is a disease, or do you think alcoholics are just people that are trying to self-medicate themselves ?

    this is kinda like that question - - - if a tree falls in the forest, and there was no one there to hear it, would there be sound  ? 

    +6  Views: 2534 Answers: 12 Posted: 6 years ago
    Tags: alcoholism

    12 Answers

    yes to all of the above. people do use to self medicate. statistics say over 200 million people use alcohol. 19 million have a problem with it.  anything can become a disease when it's abused and over used. if people did not get high on alcohol, they would find something else.  humans like to explore, and exploring altered states is what alcohol and other substances are all about. a lot of people alter their states with food, maybe exercise or some addictive behavior. we would always be able to find something to use,  because we and our human brains are always seeking and searching. the trick is to not get too addicted, crazy or disease prone, because of what we decide to eat, drink or do.

    mycatsmom

    tabber, yes, some people do have addictive personalities, I've heard. So I guess if alcohol was never developed, they would find something else, like you and other people on this site said.

    I've known many alcoholics over the years and I've seen the struggles involved in quitting. Not easy for sure. However, if it is a disease, then it's the first disease known to man that is contracted by dumping it down your throat. To drink alcohol on a daily basis, to the point of drunkenness, is a choice followed by an action.

    terryfossil 1

    Not all alcoholics start out drinking to the point of drunkenness Quacker..>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<..
    Ducky

    Moderator
    I didn't say that. I've never known ANY who started out that way. The first alcoholic I knew was a high school acquaintance, aged 17, who drank only on weekends. He progressed to daily drunkenness. I also realize that an alcoholic does not necessarily drink everyday. In addition, some alcoholics never miss a day of work. A boss of mine was one of those.
    terryfossil 1

    Once an alcoholic reaches skid row Quacker,he has to drink everyday and is incapable of going to work..the level of alcoholics goes from starting to drink and never stopping..>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<..
    ausKevin

    For me. I started drinking mid teens. I started specifically to get drunk. It was what my friends were doing. In later years through my 20s-30s my drinking was more on weekends occasionally during the week. Drunkenness is a vague term. 1 drink and you are drunk to a certain extent. All people make choices. Not all choices have the best outcomes. When do we stop beating people for mistaken choices and help them with compassion to make better ones and stop saying "well you made a choice, live with it?" Believe me addicts and those recovering are and forever will. I am not saying that is what you do yet to put it simply as a "choice followed by an action" is a bit narrow and looking at the past rather than looking toward the future. One of the last things a recovering addict needs to hear is "You did it to yourself." They know.
    ausKevin

    @terryfossil 1-Drink to feel good until you have to drink to not feel bad.
    Ducky

    Moderator
    @ausKevin....Yes, my statement is a bit narrow. I could go on for "miles" about my contacts and conversations with both current and recovering alcoholics. There is much disagreement about what works and what doesn't work.....a disease or a choice....from the alcoholics themselves. I'm not just 'talking' with my comments. I've listened....a lot!
    Having never been an alcoholic myself, I do not speak from personal experience, only from what I've been told by those who are or have been, along with very close observation and peripheral involvement with many. If an alcoholic feels the need to believe that it is a disease in order to ask for help, I would say to them, do what you think may work and good luck.
    ausKevin

    I think that the biggest help for those who realize they have a problem would be if they could feel that they would not be shamed for getting help. The perception that it is just a weakness of will, self discipline or moral character pervades the entire topic. Many eventually have to reach a point of finally not caring what others think.
    Ducky

    Moderator
    I admire those who seek help and I wish that some that I've known for many years, would do so before it's too late. The husband of a friend of mine is killing himself with booze, as I type.
    terryfossil 1

    Hence the saying Quacker,an Alcoholic has to hit his own rock bottom or die,not all survive to fight another day..>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<..
    Ducky

    Moderator
    @Terry...He went to rehab and had quit drinking for 10 years. He started up again and has now been drinking again for about 20 years....drunk almost every day now, even though his doctor told him last year...."Stop drinking and smoking NOW"!
    It is a sad thing to watch Terry. I feel as though I'm just waiting for the funeral of a funny, likeable and talented man. :(((

    Not a fair question MCM,no alcohol means no alcoholism..nuff said,,Disease or addiction???..who cares what definition someone puts on it,,either way it is a major problem,,you can be born alcoholic and be an alcoholic from your very first drink,but it is not a problem right away as it simply becomes medicine for another problem..after awhile the medicine becomes the problem,,but by that time you could be ,Spiritually,physically,and mentally stuffed..with no way out,,there is always the idiot that comes along and says,"why don't you just stop drinking",if it was that bl**dy easy everybody would have done it..but yes that is the first step..depending on the depth the person has gone down to will depend on how much he wants out and the sort of help he receives..it is not something you can explain in a few words,and each person is different..going down the hill is always easy,going back up the hill is always harder,not everybody gets back up the hill..I did,nuff said..>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<..

    bulletman

    Good on ya, Terry, not many can have a turn around, Congrats..
    terryfossil 1

    Thanks Kent..you been a bit quite lately,hope everything is okay..>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<..
    tabber

    terry, getting back up that hill takes a lot of courage and some good luck too. Good for you!!! nuff said. tabbie
    bulletman

    Terry, i don't log in all that much now, as the addiction of AKa is starting to wain, pity - could not wait to log on between 2-6 years ago, a lot of regulars have gone.
    terryfossil 1

    That's okay mate,i am still here,and i need you here with me,,not everybody understands how an Aussie thinks..:):):):)..>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<..
    ausKevin

    Yes when you stop an addiction you are at the bottom of the hill and starting over. Keep climbing. 2+ yrs and climbing.
    terryfossil 1

    @ AusKevin,,well done mate,keep it going,i am coming back from skid row,and it has been 30 odd years now,my main fear now is never touching that first drink...>>>>>>><<<<<<<<..

    I don't see how there can be alcoholics if alcohol does not exist nor had it ever existed. This makes about as much sense as calling someone a caffeine addict if caffeine didn't exist. (Maybe not the best example but good enough)


       lIMO, It's disgraceful for an alcoholic or a drug addict to categorize their dependency as a disease. It's an insult and it belittles everyone who is actually suffering from a real disease such as MS, Diabetes, Cancer, and the list goes on. 


    Here is a very good video that I think you may enjoy watching, MCM.


    I think it makes a whole lot of sense.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG1A3cfqcWw

    ausKevin

    I understand what you say but I feel you are a bit harsh. You mention MS, Diabetes, Cancer. The exact cause of those "and the list goes on" diseases are not exactly known. For MS, Diabetes mellitus type 1, cancer (many types) the causes are possibly both genetic and environmental by current understanding. Don't be quick to assume that addictions are merely a failure of personal responsibility. An individuals' social surroundings are an environment and other neurological factors that may well be genetic combined with that environment can lead to an addiction. It is way to easy to say it all boils down to a "just say no" situation. Some forms of cancer are due to now known environmental causes. Skin cancer from sunlight, Lung cancer from asbestos, other cancers from other carcinogens. Should we just say "well you should have stayed out of the sun or not inhaled asbestos?" Long term addiction forever alters your brain structure in many ways making it just as incurable as many other "real diseases." I feel your judgment lacks compassion..
    ausKevin

    Well. Now that I have fast data I just watched that "youtube" video. It is very appropriate that it is in the Comedy category because it is a joke. I see no citations for this garbage. You talk of disgraceful? This junk of a video is the best example there is.
    Definition of disease
    1 obsolete :trouble
    2 :a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms :sickness, malady

    infectious diseases

    a rare genetic disease

    heart disease

    3 :a harmful development (as in a social institution)

    sees the city's crime as a disease

    — diseased play \-ˈzēzd\ adjective
    country bumpkin

    Moderator
    This video was shown to me by a former Meth addict. the video is not stupid to her or to the addicts who take responsibility for their addiction instead of pawning it off as a disease.
    I had a cocaine addiction when I was in my 20's/30's so I am neither lacking understanding or compassion.
    We will have to agree to disagree.
    ausKevin

    CB-Whatever mindset she or anyone suffering needs to stay clean and sober is fine for the individual. But mindset is only part of it. The shame approach or the idea that everyone can 'kick it themselves" keeps many from getting help. While I would rather call addiction an incurable but manageable condition rather than a "disease" that is a contextual conclusion. The "go it alone" mindset is a hazardous one. It can be deadly. It killed my oldest brother. He was a long time addict that transferred his addiction into one of health supplements and exercise instead of medicine. He died in his bed of respiratory failure from pneumonia. He refused to go to a Doctor. Ironic that he was a Doctor of optometry and his wife a longtime Pharmacist. Arrogance can kill.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1299105/
    country bumpkin

    Moderator
    I'm still not buying into it, ausKev. Good effort though.

    ....an attitude of help over judgement is needed for the choice or disease 

    terryfossil 1

    Give it to me in english Benny..>>>>>>><<<<<<<..

    Yes, yes, yes, no

    Well if there was no booze there certainly would be no alcohol related deaths ... so booze is really a destructive force just regarding that one fact ... wow.

    Fermented fruit is alcohol.  It is NOT man made it happens. Many animals become "drunk" eating these fruits! Most of all things that are addictive are nature made. Opioids are from nature. ( opium, and those extracts. For all things nature made there is a reason. We the people CHOOSE to abuse these things. 


     So this is not an answer , just an opinion

    jhharlan

    Fairly darn wise, clu.....

    Alcohol is man made. Where ever would you get that silly idea that its not. Alcohol can put a person body  in a dis-ease state . Just like cigarettes, marijuana, other drugs , it affects the body chemistry. Dont think of it as self medicating themselves,you can, but think of it as self destroying themselves.  

    ausKevin

    "Alcohol is man made" No. "Man" makes use of a natural process to obtain the quantity of alcohol he desires when he desires it. I do not think you fully understand the concept of self medication.

    Alcohol is not man-made, it is formed from the action of the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae on sugar. 

    mycatsmom

    hhmmmm, you've got a point there, nom. Let's just say man / woman discovered alcohol.If it was never discovered, would alcoholism still be a disease ? Is it a disease ?

    No, No, No. OK. "Alcoholism" is a label describing a physical and psychological dependency/addiction to a chemical substance. I do not like the term alcoholic. It comes with a lot of stigma and misconception. During the efforts to repeal prohibition the term alcoholic was coined and associated to the concept of a disease to imply that only some can get it and others don't. This helped to "sell" repeal of prohibition. To your questions in particular: 1st Answer: Alcohol is the normal byproduct of yeast metabolizing sugar. It happens in nature even without human influence. Many animals other than humans consume alcohol. I do not have the data on hand atm but I see no reason why other animals cannot become addicted. 2nd Answer: It is an addiction/dependency on a chemical substance. Some may have a predisposition to being addicted easier than others but for the vast majority of humans if you use/abuse a chemical substance long enough you will become addicted to some extent. 3rd Answer: Self medication for anxiety, depression and other psychological stresses is a common cause of addiction. If this is the case then those conditions commonly still exist during dependency and cannot be addressed until 6 month to a year after an individual stops depending on chemical substances. If you are interested look up the neurological effects of chemical addictions. It will explain a lot.

    mycatsmom

    good answer . There were many well thought-out, researched answers here.
    terryfossil 1

    It appears your brain has not been damaged by booze Kev..if you do not mind me asking kev,,did you go through AA.or some other way.?????>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<..
    ausKevin

    Thanks mycatsmom! terrfossil 1Thanks. Well. I reached a point of no return really. Money was exhausted and I could not afford to keep from going through withdrawal. I have had hypertension for awhile and while I was drinking it was tolerable. When I started to withdraw it would shoot up to over 200/120. Hypertensive emergency. Fortunately a former sister in law is an addiction specialist with a private practice serving mostly professionals. She informed me that I qualified for State funded detox and 30 day inpatient rehab so I took the contact info, made the arrangements and went in. The rehab facility takes a "all of the above" approach to recovery. Daily AA/NA, Classes on triggers, lifestyle changes, group therapy, family classes, Individual study projects, weekly one on one therapy with a therapist. Tons of stuff. After getting out I started different things to keep myself busy. It has worked for me :-) I may start checking in with AA again. Not because I am thinking relapse though. There are other parts to climbing back other than just that and many of the people there have connections and tips on career changes and the like. Networking so to speak. The place I went to I would give 5 stars.
    terryfossil 1

    I know the sort of places you are talking about Kev,i went through those intensive groups,hospital detox,salvation army detox,salvation army was the place you went when nobody else wanted you..i found my sober via God,,nothing else worked for me,,and i am not saying anything against the other ways..each to his own..>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<..

    Honestly, alcohol is not man made.  It naturally occurs.  Human beings also naturally occur. 


    We eat things, we drink things and unfortunately we smoke things.  Light fire to anything and inhale... really bad idea. 


    There are one-kazzilion things that human beings can do that are really bad ideas.  ... and about six that we all agree upon that are spectacular ideas.  The six good ones are totally overshadowed by the bad dark clouds of idiotic ideas .... bing, bang, boom... welcome to the human race. 


    Alcoholism is a  baby-bad idea.  Human beings came up with a lot worse than that. 



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