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    This is why religion and politics DO NOT MIX!!

    First Obama and his reference that Jesus would approve of higher taxes and now this knuckle brain:


    "Alabama State Sen. McGill does not shy away from referencing his personal religion in public statements regarding political decisions, which would normally be problematic, but is especially so when these statements turn out to be extremely hypocritical.


    Most recently, he publicly stated that keeping teachers' pay low is "a Biblical principle." "If you double a teacher's pay scale, you'll attract people who aren't called to teach," he said. Alabama's teachers are among the least paid in the nation.


    Ironically, as he was so quick to qualify that teachers' pay should be kept low, there was apparently nothing in the Bible that kept him from approving a 67% pay raise for legislators."


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    Anyone who mixes their religion into political affairs should be fired! 


    I personally do not live by the bible like millions of others do not. I'm quite frankly sick and tired of seeing dimwits use the bible to try and control or manipulate others or to create laws around.     


    KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS!! 

    +13  Views: 2496 Answers: 14 Posted: 12 years ago

    14 Answers

    Don,t like to argue about this daren but have you ever read this>>>One of the many attacks on our country from the Religious Right is the claim that our country is a Christian Nation...not just that the majority of people are Christians, but that the country itself was founded by Christians, for Christians. However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. Those people who spread this lie are known as Christian Revisionists. They are attempting to rewrite history, in much the same way as holocaust deniers are. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true. They were Freethinkers who relied on their reason, not their faith.
    If the U.S. was founded on the Christian religion, the Constitution would clearly say so--but it does not. Nowhere does the Constitution say: "The United States is a Christian Nation", or anything even close to that. In fact, the words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, Creator, Divine, and God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not even once. Nowhere in the Constitution is religion mentioned, except in exclusionary terms. When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had.


    The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea that the power to rule over other people comes from god. It was a letter from the Colonies to the English King, stating their intentions to seperate themselves. The Declaration is not a governing document. It mentions "Nature's God" and "Divine Providence"-- but as you will soon see, that's the language of Deism, not Christianity.
    The 1796 Treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" (see the image on the right). This was not an idle statement meant to satisfy muslims-- they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.


    None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists. We'll never know; but by reading their own writings, it's clear that most of them were opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.


    Yes, there were Christian men among the Founders. Just as Congress removed Thomas Jefferson's words that condemned the practice of slavery in the colonies, they also altered his wording regarding equal rights. His original wording is here in blue italics: "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Congress changed that phrase, increasing its religious overtones: "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights." But we are not governed by the Declaration of Independence-- it is a historical document, not a constitutional one.


    If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it... because it was a climate of Freethought. The Founders were students of the European Enlightenment. Half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought. The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country.


    Consider this: IF indeed the members of the First Continental Congress were all bible-believing Christians, would there ever have been a revolution at all?


    "For rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft." 1 Samuel, 15:23


    This passage refers to humans rebelling against god, a statement that establishes the precedence of unconditional subservience which is further illustrated, very explicitly, by the following two passages:


    1 Peter 2:13: "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."


    Paul wrote in Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resist authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."


    Would our Founding Fathers have initiated a rebellion if they thought it was a sin equal to witchcraft (a crime punishable by death)? The bible gives clear instructions to Christians on how to behave when ruled under a monarchy, as the Founders clearly were. The Founders obviously did not heed what was written in the bible. If they were in fact good Christians, there would never have been an American Revolution. Compare the above passages with what is written in the Declaration of Independence:


    "When a long train of abuses and usurpations... evinces a design to reduce (the people) under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."


    Who were the Founding Fathers? American historian Richard B. Morris, in his 1973 book Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries, identified the following seven figures as the "key" Founding Fathers:
    John Adams
    Benjamin Franklin
    Alexander Hamilton
    John Jay
    Thomas Jefferson
    James Madison
    George Washington
    Of these, only John Jay can be considered an orthodox Christian. As Congress's Secretary for Foreign Affairs, he argued (unsuccessfully) for a prohibition forbidding Catholics from holding office. On October 12, 1816, Jay wrote, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest, of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." It is John Jay that the modern Christians have in mind when they talk about the Founding Fathers. Luckily for the rest of us, and all freedom-loving Americans, he was not in the majority.


    Sometimes Christians offer up the Pilgrims as an example of our nation's Christian founding. That is sheer ignorance on their part. The Pilgrims weren't the ones who crafted the Constitution that governs our nation! They weren't the ones who rebelled against England. The Pilgrims fled from horrible religious persecution in England only to practice the SAME HORRIBLE RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION here, as you can read on this pious Christian site. The "religious freedom" so often spoken of in regards to the pilgrims was espoused by them only when they were the victims. It was not based on any principle of fairness-- it was a belief born of weakness, to be fogotten in their moment of power. Christian Colonists branded non-christians on the forehead with red-hot irons, bore them through their tongues, confiscated their property and threw them in jail, hanged them and burned them at the stake-- THAT is what happens when Christians have their way! But that website is wrong in claiming that non-Christians are "criminals under the CONSTITUTION". It's the Constitution that did away with Christian persecution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That means people can freely exersize whatever religious belief they wish, Christian or not. Thanks to the Constitution, Christians can no longer persecute and kill those who do not agree with them.


    Quotations regarding religious beliefs:


    Thomas Jefferson John Adams
    Benjamin Franklin Thomas Paine
    James Madison George Washington


    The fourth president of the United States, James Madison, was much like the other Virginia presidents--Washington and Jefferson--who went before him. Like them, he loved his home state only a little less than his country. Like them, he was a rich man who gave his whole life to public service. He was an able student of politics and government who brought real knowledge and skill to his job. In public office Madison was a calm, reasoning statesman who governed by force of logic. In a time when emotions ran high, he made common sense prevail. He was not always successful in dealing with foreign nations, but history has shown that he had right and justice on his side. He entered the presidency at a time when war clouds hung over the young nation. He saw his country through the disastrous War of 1812, and his final months in office produced the "era of good feeling" that lasted for many years. He did well as secretary of state and as president, but his greatest record was made earlier. For his outstanding work on the nation's charter, Madison is known as the Father of the Constitution. .
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    Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe
    Copyright © 
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    "It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."
    James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN 0-8975-298-X. pp. 237-238 .


    "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
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    "Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - Ibid, 1785
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    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
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    "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."
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    "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches


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    John Adams The second president of the United States was John Adams, lawyer and diplomat. Adams' public career lasted more than 35 years. He was second only to George Washington in making a place for the young United States among the nations of the world. In his devotion to the country he was second to none
    Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe, Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.


    "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
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    "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
    -letter to Thomas Jefferson
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    "The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."
    - letter to John Taylor
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    "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
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    "The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
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    "Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?" -letter to Thomas Jefferson
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    "God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."
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    "Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"


    ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
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    "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
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    Thomas Jefferson The third president of the United States was Thomas Jefferson. He had been the author of the Declaration of Independence and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. In an age of great men Jefferson was remarkable for his wide-ranging curiosity on many subjects. He helped the United States get started, and his plans for the future helped it grow. Many of the good things Americans enjoy today have come from Jefferson's devotion to human rights. Jefferson is often called the founder of the Democratic party. Many other groups also claim to follow his principles. He developed the theory of states' rights, which was against giving much authority to the federal government. He is known to everyone as the author of the ringing statement in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal, that among their inalienable rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. His writings have stood as a torch to the defenders of individual freedom, in spiritual as well as in worldly affairs. .


    Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe
    Copyright © 


    Thomas Jefferson, because he was the author of the Declaration of Independence and the embodiment of our nation's expressions of freedom, is the Founding Father who is most often claimed by the Christians as one of their own. Unfortunately-- for them-- he left behind many writings which lead us to conclude that his beliefs were quite different from those of the common christian. The claim that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian can only be made by someone who has never read his original writings. Christians may think that just because he mentions "god", that makes him a Christian just like them. Jefferson absolutely believed in a god-- but not the god of orthodox Christianity. He was a Deist (Nature's God), not a Christian (the trinitarian God of Abraham and Isaac).


    Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the Trinity, and he said so:


    "The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs." -- Letter to James Smith, December 8, 1822


    "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet the one is not three, and the three are not one: to divide mankind by a single letter into ["consubstantialists and like-substantialists"]. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies. We should all then, like the quakers, live without an order of priests, moralise for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe; for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition." -- Jefferson's Letter to John Adams, August 22, 1813


    (John Adams' reply to this letter shows that he did not believe in the Trinity either): "The human understanding is a revelation from its maker, which can never be disputed or doubted. There can be no scepticism, Pyrrhonism, or incredulity or infidelity here. No prophecies, no miracles are necessary to prove this celestical communication. This revelation has made it certain that two and one make three, and that one is not three nor can three be one. We can never be so certain of any prophecy, or the fulfilment of any prophecy, or of any miracle, or the design of any miracle, as we are from the revelation of nature, that is, nature's God, that two and two are equal to four." --Adam's Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 14 September 1813


    Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, and he said so:


    "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." -- Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823


    Jefferson was a rationalist. He believed that Jesus was a pure and ethical teacher of morals. To that end, Jefferson took a razor to the New Testament and removed passages he thought to have been inserted by the authors of the gospels (whom he called the "commentators"), and he pasted what remained together as "The Jefferson Bible". With his razor blade, he removed every verse dealing with the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, claims of Jesus' divinity and other puerile superstition, thus leaving us with a very much shorter book. In 1904, the Jefferson Bible was printed by order of Congress, and for many years was presented to all newly elected members of that body.


    "No one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason in its advances towards rational Christianity. When we shall have done away the incomprehensible jargon of the Trinitarian arithmetic, that three are one, and one is three; when we shall have knocked down the artificial scaffolding, raised to mask from view the simple structure of Jesus; when, in short, we shall have unlearned everything which has been taught since His day, and get back to the pure and simple doctrines He inculcated, we shall then be truly and worthily His disciples; and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed purely from His lips, the whole world would at this day have been Christian. I know that the case you cite, of Dr. Drake, has been a common one. The religion-builders have so distorted and deformed the doctrines of Jesus, so muffled them in mysticisms, fancies and falsehoods, have caricatured them into forms so monstrous and inconceivable, as to shock reasonable thinkers, to revolt them against the whole, and drive them rashly to pronounce its Founder an imposter. Had there never been a commentator, there never would have been an infidel." -- Jefferson's Letter to Timothy Pickering, 21 Feb 1821


    "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.
    1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect.
    2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.
    3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion.


    These are the great points on which he endeavored to reform the religion of the Jews. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin:
    1. That there are three Gods.
    2. That good works, or love of our neighbor, are nothing.
    3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit in the faith.
    4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
    5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.


    Now, which of these is the true and charitable Christian? He who believes and acts on the simple doctrines of Jesus? Or the impious dogmatists, as Athanasius and Calvin? Verily I say these are the false shepherds fortold as to enter not by the door into the sheepfold, but to climb up some way. They are mere usurpers of the Christian name, teaching a counter-religion made up of the deliria of crazy imaginations, as foreign from Christianity as is that of Mohomet. Their blasphemies have driven thinking men into infidelity, who have too hastily rejected the supposed author himself, with the horrors so falsely imputed to him. Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian. I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian." --Jefferson's letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26 1822


    Jefferson was called an ATHEIST by Christian ministers of his day, who tried to block his presidency! How can Christians claim him now as one of them, now that he's dead?!
    http://www.newwest.net/city/article/thomas_jefferson_atheist_and_leveler_from_virginia/C108/L108/
    "As to the calumny of Atheism, I am so broken to calumnies of every kind, from every department of government, Executive, Legislative, and Judiciary, and from every minion of theirs holding office or seeking it, that I entirely disregard it, and from Chace it will have less effect than from any other man in the United States. It has been so impossible to contradict all their lies, that I have determined to contradict none; for while I should be engaged with one, they would publish twenty new ones." -- Jefferson's Letter to James Monroe, May 26, 1800


    The most famous ‘out of context’ religious quote of Thomas Jefferson is to be found in the Jefferson Memorial in Washington D.C. Around the rotunda of the Jefferson Memorial, in large gold letters, is the quote: “I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD, ETERNAL HOSTILITY AGAINST EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN.” The quote was taken, completely out of context from a letter that Jefferson wrote to Dr. Benjamin Rush September 23, 1800. The quote put in its original context says just the opposite of the pious sentiment it is made to say. In his letter to Dr. Rush Jefferson is talking about the Christian clergy who were working against his being elected President by saying Jefferson was an infidel. The complete quote says: “The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their (the Christian clergy) hopes, and they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” So we see that in his letter Jefferson is saying that the “tyranny over the mind of man” that he is opposed to are the schemes of the Christian clergy, and the god he is referring to is the god of Deism, not the god of the Christians.


    "If by religion we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, "that this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." But if the moral precepts, innate in man, and made a part of his physical constitution, as necessary for a social being, if the sublime doctrines of philanthropism and deism taught us by Jesus of Nazareth, in which all agree, constitute true religion, then, without it, this would be, as you again say, "something not fit to be named even, indeed, a hell." -- Letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, May 5, 1817


    Thomas Jefferson did not believe that Jesus was God, and he said so:


    "The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation is ever dangerous. Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion; and a step to right or left might place Him within the grasp of the priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the Being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle Him in the web of the law. He was justifiable, therefore, in avoiding these by evasions, by sophisms, by misconstructions and misapplications of scraps of the prophets, and in defending Himself with these their own weapons, as sufficient, ad homines, at least. That Jesus did not mean to impose Himself on mankind as the Son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in the lore." -- Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Short, August 4, 1820


    To claim that Jefferson was a Christian is outright dishonest. He was a MATERIALIST, and he said so:


    "But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- letter to William Short, April 13, 1820; Definition of a Materialist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism


    "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
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    "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - "Notes on Virginia"
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    "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. - letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
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    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
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    "On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." - to Carey, 1816
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    "Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --Notes on Virginia.


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    "Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house." - to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
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    "It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."
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    "They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."
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    "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
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    "We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."
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    "No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever." -Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
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    "... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself." - letter to Horatio Spofford, 1816
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    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
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    "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814
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    "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
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    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
    -letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT "The Complete Jefferson" 


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    George Washington Many United States presidents are honored for their great work, but two stand above all others-- George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln is remembered for his great human qualities. Washington is beloved as the "father of his country." Washington was a "father" in many ways. He was commander in chief of the American forces in the American Revolution, chairman of the convention that wrote the United States Constitution, and first president. He led the men who turned America from an English colony into a self-governing nation. His ideals of liberty and democracy set a standard for future presidents and for the whole country. Washington seemed somewhat cold and formal to the public. With his family and friends he often relaxed. He helped family and friends with gifts and loans, asking only that they would not reveal the donor. However, he was quick to say "no" when he felt imposed upon. Washington's memory is held in honor by his fellow countrymen and by the world. The enemies and critics who attacked him in war and in peace are now largely forgotten. His name has become a byword for honor, loyalty, and love of count


    .
    The father of this country was very private about his beliefs, but it is widely considered that he was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason.
    Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]


    Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." 
    .


    .
    "Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
    - letter to Edward Newenham, 1792
    .


    "Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself." -Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800


    .


    Benjamin Franklin Few men have done as much for the world as Benjamin Franklin. Although he was always proud to call himself a printer, Franklin had many other talents as well. He was a diplomat, a scientist, an inventor, a philosopher, an educator, and a public servant. Any one of Franklin's many accomplishments would have been enough to make him famous. He organized the first library in America, and the U.S. Postal System. He invented many things, including the lightning rod and the Franklin stove. Franklin amazed scientists throughout the world with his experiments in electricity. In Europe, Benjamin Franklin was the most famous American of his time. It was he who persuaded the English to repeal the hated Stamp Act. It was also he who convinced the French to aid in the American Revolution. Franklin helped draft both the Declaration of Independence and the American Constitution.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe

    .


    "I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."
    - letter to his father, 1738


    ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
    .


    "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
    - "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728
    .


    "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." - Works, Vol. VII, p. 75
    .


    "If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."
    .


    "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -in Poor Richard's Almanac
    .


    "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac
    .


    "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
    .


    "I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."
    .


    "In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it."


    "It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)


    More about Franklin's Deism
    .


    Thomas Paine was the "firebrand of the American Revolution." His writings brought courage in times of crisis. The first was in January 1776. At that time the colonies were still split on the question of declaring their independence from Great Britain. Some instructed their delegates in the Continental Congress to act against separation from the mother country. Thousands of colonists were undecided. On January 10 Paine published a pamphlet, 'Common Sense'. To rally the faltering he wrote: "Freedom has been hunted around the globe. Asia and Africa have expelled her . . . and England has given her warning to depart. O, receive the fugitive and prepare in time an asylum for mankind!" Colonists up and down the seaboard read this stirring call to action. George Washington himself said it turned doubt into decision--for independence.
    As a young man he sailed to America from England, carrying letters of introduction from Benjamin Franklin, whom he had met in London. Franklin recommended him for the "genius in his eyes." Franklin's letters got him the post of assistant editor of the new Pennsylvania Magazine in Philadelphia. One of his essays denounced slavery in the colonies.
    In England he published 'Rights of Man' in 1791, in support of the French Revolution. Today the book seems moderate, but it so stirred Britain that he was indicted for treason. He fled to France and was elected to the National Convention. There he opposed the execution of Louis XVI. His humanitarian stand won him the ill will of the Jacobins, and he escaped the guillotine only through the fall of Maximilien Robespierre. After ten months in prison he was released and aided by James Monroe, then United States ambassador to France and later U.S. president.
    .


    .


    "The New Testament, they tell us, is founded upon the prophecies of the Old; if so, it must follow the fate of its foundation.''
    .


    "Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."
    .


    "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
    .


    "What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."
    .


    "Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."
    .


    "We do not admit the authority of the church with respect to its pretended infallibility, its manufactured miracles, its setting itself up to forgive sins. It was by propagating that belief and supporting it with fire that she kept up her temporal power."
    .


    "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
    .


    "The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar."


    "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
    .


    "The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."


    .


    Ethan Allen, Revolutionary War Hero


    "I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not."
    preface, Reason the Only Oracle of Man
    .


    .
    Abraham Lincoln, although not a Founding Father, was an extremely influential and important U.S. President. He is considered, after George Washington, the greatest of presidents. Every child is taught about Lincoln's birth in a log cabin, but what is not taught is that he rejected Christianity, never joined a church, and even wrote a treatise against religion.
    At times religious wording was written into Lincoln's speeches, but such public soothes were brought at the insistence of White House staff members. In 1843, after he lost a campaign for Congress, he wrote to his supporters: "It was everywhere contended that no Christian ought to vote for me because I belonged to no church, and was suspected of being a Deist."


    When Lincoln was first considered for the presidential nomination, Logan Hay wrote to his nephew, the future Secretary of State John Hay: "Candor compels me to say that Mr. Lincoln could hardly be termed a devout believer in the authenticity of the Bible (but this is for your ears only)."


    Interviewer Opie Read once asked Lincoln about his conception of God, to which he replied: "The same as my conception of nature." When he was asked what he meant by that, he said: "That it is impossible for either to be personal."


    His former law partner, William Herndon, said of him after his assassination: "[Mr. Lincoln] never mentioned the name of Jesus, except to scorn and detest the idea of a miraculous conception. He did write a little work on infidelity in 1835-6, and never recanted. He was an out-and-out infidel, and about that there is no mistake." He also said that Lincoln "assimilated into his own being" the heretical book Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.


    Lincoln's first law partner, John T. Stuart, said of him: "He was an avowed and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on atheism. He went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I have ever heard."


    Supreme Court Justice David Davis: "He [Lincoln] had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term-- he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects."
    .


    .
    "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."
    -Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis. 


     


    A little research online can do wonderful things.

    robertgrist

    Romos….That’s quite tome you have there and it all looks good to me. If you could tone it down a bit to 25 words of less I wouldn’t think you may have reproduced a book here. thanks
    Colleen

    Moderator
    He's just trying to catch Daren up on the parts of his history class that he apparently was out sick for, lol. I learned all that in school. Very few of our founding fathers actually followed or practiced or believed in the religions they were born into.
    doolittle

    page hog! LOL. When I have time I'll read your book.
    PEOPLELOVER

    Holy smoke ROMOS remind me not to get in a blue with you.
    I believe you have at last pointed out to the thumpers how much bull dust they believe.
    I wait with bated breath for the responses.
    Well done, of course this was influenced from your dear mothers side of your existence.
    eggplant

    Romos, you have a book in the making, and you out did the fanatical Christians who whirl around this site like washing machines.
    Bob/PKB

    I think the issue is GOD. Why bring Christianity into play. We don't have anything saying, "In Jesus Christ we trust". Christians may believe God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one, but that doesn't make it so for everybody. There is a lot of assuming going on. Obama probably used Jesus to disable Christianity even more. His reference to Christ wasn't faithful in origin.
    Colleen

    Moderator
    @ Bob, This was in response to Daren's comment that the United States was founded on the bible. That is why Christianity was brought into this. This is showing that his comment is unfounded.
    Chiangmai

    Holy Cow!
    Daisy!

    Outstanding!
    valR

    Amazonian!

    In these cases where the politicians refer to bible verse they are simply using it as a tool to influence the thinking of those within earshot.  Obama and McGill are too dimwitted apparently to see this. 


    They have a followers who would say,  Aw, the good man is quoting scripture, gotta be OK then.


    I'll give they $5.00 for entertaining me, I love comedy.


     

    This country (usa) was founded on the bible, it's a shame our leaders only use certain quotes to enhance their agenda, if were not carefull next thing you know well all be facing east praying towards mecca , quoting from the koran..

    Colleen

    Moderator
    It was founded on the ideals of men who wanted to be free of religious rule. Many of the forefathers did not even practice their religion. It was just expected back in the day to follow some kind of religion. The God spoken of in the US Constitution is ANY God, not the Christian one particularly. No biblical verses can be found in the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution nor the bill of rights. Religion stays out of politics. I will never vote for an overtly religious person of any religious belief because of this. You Christians need to drop this belief that Christianity rules the USA. It does not and I will spend all my votes helping to remove Christians from office if I have to and if they have your same mindset. ONE RELIGIOUS BELIEF SHOULD NOT AFFECT ALL PEOPLE OF A STATE. RELIGIOUS BELIEFS SHOULD NOT MATTER WHEN IT COMES TO SETTING DOWN LAWS. We may as well be Iraq if we are going to do that.
    Colleen

    Moderator
    America (before it became the United States of America) was not founded by your Christian religion. It was founded by different religions but mainly Quakers and Puritans.

    The colonial history of the United States covers the history from the start of European settlement and especially the history of the thirteen colonies of Britain until they declared independence in 1776. In the late 16th century, England, France, Spain and the Netherlands launched major colonization programs in eastern North America.[1] Many early attempts—notably the English Lost Colony of Roanoke—ended in failure, and everywhere the death rate of the first arrivals was very high, but key successful colonies were established. European settlers came from a variety of social and religious groups. No aristocrats settled permanently, but a number of adventurers, soldiers, farmers, and tradesmen arrived. Ethnic diversity was an American characteristic as the Dutch of New Netherland, the Swedes and Finns of New Sweden, the English Quakers of Pennsylvania, the English Puritans of New England, the English settlers of Jamestown, and the "worthy poor" of Georgia, came to the new continent and built colonies with distinctive social, religious, political and economic styles.

    Several beliefs differentiated Puritans from other Christians. The first was their belief in predestination. Puritans believed that belief in Jesus and participation in the sacraments could not alone effect one's salvation; one cannot choose salvation, for that is the privilege of God alone. All features of salvation are determined by God's sovereignty, including choosing those who will be saved and those who will receive God's irresistible grace. The Puritans distinguished between "justification," or the gift of God's grace given to the elect, and "sanctification," the holy behavior that supposedly resulted when an individual had been saved; according to The English Literatures of America, "Sanctification is evidence of salvation, but does not cause it" (434). When William Laud, an avowed Arminian, became Archbishop of Canterbury in 1633, the Church of England began to embrace beliefs abhorrent to Puritans: a focus on the individual's acceptance or rejection of grace; a toleration of diverse religious beliefs; and an acceptance of "high church" rituals and symbols.

    Quakers do not regard any book as being the actual 'word of God'.

    Most Quakers regard the Bible as a very great inspirational book but they don't see it as the only one, and so they read other books that can guide their lives.

    Holy Days

    Quakers do not celebrate Christian festivals such as Easter and Christmas.

    Worship

    Quaker communal worship consists of silent waiting, with participants contributing as the spirit moves them.

    Are Quakers Christian?

    Although outsiders usually regard the movement as a Christian denomination, not all Quakers see themselves as Christians; some regard themselves as members of a universal religion that (for historical reasons) has many Christian elements.

    MANY OF THESE PEOPLE LEFT THEIR HOMELANDS TO COME TO THE NEW LAND TO ESCAPE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION. The Christians however brought that same persecution they were escaping to this land and persecuted other settlers who were not Christian. If this is what Daren calls "This country (usa) was founded on the bible", then I thank the forefathers for the US Constitution that stopped the persecution brought to this land because of that bible. I'm glad we are not like the mid east nations with one religion ruling us.
    Colleen

    Moderator
    Please show me in historical evidence that this country was founded on the bible.
    robertgrist

    Colleen…you are so hot…I love to see you write like that.
    Bob/PKB

    I thought the people who left England wanted to be free to worship (or not)as they chose, not be told what/how they would worship.
    Colleen

    Moderator
    Not all who came to these shore were from England. Many wanted to be free of religious tyranny. They set up their own churches without the laws and oppressive rules they has been living under. It's an interesting read. I remember it well from jr high.
    michmar118

    I'm totally with you, Colleen. Amazing, and sad, how the truth gets so twisted. Thanks for being the soldier of truth, history and common sense on this crucial mission. We NEED the groundedness you bring.

    I've always believed in separation between church and state...........

    The rules of religion divide people. I have relatives that are very religious ~ the subject never comes up anymore. We never move closer to each other. So sad. I am not religious, if I said one thing on this subject at a holiday meal I’d be out of the family. Gone!

    Listening recently to the BBC radio prog  ' Beyond Belief ', one of the participants said an atheist would not get a job as a dog warden in the US, let alone hold political office.

    itsmee

    That is so scary. If that’s true any of our good leaders will have to spout something biblical in order to help the United States and its people.
    It’s ‘beyond belief'
    Colleen

    Moderator
    Once apon a time that was true. Now it's seen as unconstitutional to ask a person what their religion is or discriminate because of it. But there was a period in our history were religion was something you had to fill out on the job application. If you had no religion, your application was rejected. Just another twist in the road, compliments of the Christian religion who had striven to regain the power it was on it's way to amassing before the founding fathers put a stop to their nonsense. Even after, they continue to strive to make this a Christian nation. Today's Christians have no idea the legacy they have inherited and why people have such an issue with their religion.

    (Borrowed from ROMOS'S "book"):
    Christian Colonists branded non-christians on the forehead with red-hot irons, bore them through their tongues, confiscated their property and threw them in jail, hanged them and burned them at the stake-- THAT is what happens when Christians have their way! It's the US Constitution that did away with Christian persecution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." That means people can freely exersize whatever religious belief they wish, Christian or not. Thanks to the Constitution, Christians can no longer persecute and kill those who do not agree with them.)

    It took about 190 years to get us here since the Constitution was written (I beleive it was somewhere in the late 70's, early 80's (?)when religion was removed from job applications), but religion no longer matters to get a job here. Politicians just go for the easy Christian vote by claiming themselves as Christian. Look how easily Obama has fooled a majority of the Christian sect. All he had to do was say, "I am a Christian" and "Jesus" in the same sentence and the religious fell to their knees and voted him in and will vote for him again. They are still seeking their religious power that they lost because of the US Constitution. The United States of America was not founded on Christian ideals nor the Christian bible, no matter what some Christians think.
    Bob/PKB

    Most people don't go around proclaiming their faith, or lack of it, regarding a job. It's never been on any application for a job I've applied for, nor has the subject ever been mentioned in an interview. Who has the best qualifications for the work that needs to be done has always been the issue.
    Colleen

    Moderator
    Interesting that you never had it on an application Bob. When did you get your first job that you would have had to fill out an application for? You're older than me aren't you? Maybe California didn't ask where NH did. Perhaps this was a state to state thing. I checked with my mother and she, at 75 years old, remembers religion being listed on job applications. She always put Catholic because that was the most accepted religion of the time.

    Agree totally Colleen. I find the religiosty of US politicians totally bizarre and obtuse. These same politicians would oppose Islamic governments while quoting the Bible to support their policies.

    Colleen

    Moderator
    I'm pretty sure the United States was founded on the ideals that we do not get led or controlled by religious views or laws. This kind of stuff just shows me more and more that one particular religion is more about power and control still and little to do with God or the people's freedoms.

    It's too bad so many who are truly "Godless" when the veneer is stripped away choose to push their agendas by proclaiming their crap in His name. It certainly DOES put a bad taste in one's mouth regarding faith. 

    ROMOS

    My research and reply were directed at daren1,s misguided answer to Colleens Q and to no one else in particular, just some unquestionable facts....R

    I never have understood the USA Presidents all going on about "God"  as if they know him on a one to one personal basis in real life not religious imagination.


    " In God we Trust" well your trust has been betrayed of late with both the quality of your politicians and the overall state of your country.


    Thousands of young service people slaughtered in someone elses` war.


    Trust God to fix it, and bring the troops  home.


    I like our "Advance Australia" no mention of a diety running the place.

    Bob/PKB

    We come back to the belief that some people have,including me. God doesn't "FIX THINGS". We live our lives as we choose. If we choose to live our lives focused or believing in God, that's our choice. If we don't, that's our choice as well.
    My life leaves much to be desired, but I certainly don't blame God for my problems, corrupt politicians, recessions, or war. He's not in charge of making sure I'm happy, fed, clothed, or sheltered, OR that people live together in peace and harmony.
    Everyone has his own perception of who and what God is and isn't. No one knows for sure, but I'll defend everyone's right to believe as they choose with my dying breath, whether I agree with them or not.
    PEOPLELOVER

    I take your point and thank you for making it.

    To be honest I am surprised that Obama could even get the word Jesus out of his mouth. Well wonders never cease to happen however, Obama is no wonder and I wish he never happened.

    Colleen

    Moderator
    Better than that, he calls himself a Christian.

    ROMOS, You may have been cited by some that your answer was long, but in actuality you briefly touched the surface. We have all learned half truths and lies in school which is unfortunate. Why history books aren't revised to tell the truth are beyond me.  I've always remained skeptical about our country's history and have sought out knowledge on my own. I wish that everyone could aim to seek more knowledge about our Founding Fathers and thier beliefs and to learn more about science and religion. Knowledge is power and when you find  a thing to be untrue it makes you yearn for more answers. Great facts and I hope it encourages others to look for answers on thier own. You have given me some great reference material to choose from and I thank you!

    ROMOS

    Thankyou O scary one,much appreciated, alittle research can sometimes go a long way, and make a BIG point...R
    witchway

    ROMOS, I'm scary??? May I inquire as to why? ... and you're welcome, glad you feel appreciated!

    AMEN!

    There are two sides to about every story, certainly not all the founders where Christians, I believe they had christian morals and believes and most became Christian during there life.


    http://www.jameswatkins.com/foundingfathers.htm


     


    I won't post the article because of copyright laws but you can read the link above if interested. 

    Colleen

    Moderator
    You did not read what was posted, did you? I'll take a look at your link but the truth is the same (no matter how the religious right wants to spin it), the pilgrimage happened because people were fleeing from governments strife with religious rules and laws. What the Christians brought was the persecution. The founding fathers stopped that with the US Constitution which means to me that they were against Christianity being the focal point of government and social laws. SOME people set up their lives according to the bible while others set up their lives according to their religions. Government set itself devoid of any religion. This was the founding of the United States of America. This is what settled the country. A mix of religious beliefs and politics.
    Colleen

    Moderator
    Did you read through the link you posted? I've only scanned it as I've just come back after 2 hours with out electricity as a transformer blew on the next street over so I need to catch up on other things but from what I saw, it is backing up what ROMOS posted.
    Headless Man

    If you read anything with a bias mind you only see what you want.
    I see what I want and so do you, however it's hard it see the truth a couple hundred years after the facts, look at what the politicks of today can do to each other be taking out of context and saying things that can't be proven.
    Colleen

    Moderator
    Everything they said, they wrote down in letters. It's all there in their own words, in their own handwriting and not translated from an ancient language. This gives those words even more clear truth than your bible does that is over 2000 years old and had to be translated as close as possible since not all words could be translated. I can use your same argument against your bible that is more than 200 years old and not written in Jesus's hand. "It's hard to see the truth a couple hundred years later (make that over 2 thousand years later).

    There is no bias when I read the actual words of these men as they set them down in letters. How can you see anything different than what they actually wrote?

    I am not looking at today. I am looking at history and the truth of our history and I've only had to do this because of your claim and Daren's too that this country was founded on Christianity, the bible or Christian values (which was persecution of those who did not believe as they believed.) Horrible persecutions, grotesque killings by these "people of God", the same people you Christians of today want to say weren't real Christians but say at the same time, their beliefs founded this country. You can't have it both ways.

    --"Christian Colonists branded non-christians on the forehead with red-hot irons, bore them through their tongues, confiscated their property and threw them in jail, hanged them and burned them at the stake"--

    This country was founded on neither the bible nor Christianity. It was founded on freedom of religion and freedom FROM religious persecution.
    Headless Man

    Last comment, The founders words where influenced but not inspired by God, the writers of the bible where.
    Colleen

    Moderator
    They were not influenced by the bible or the Christian God. They said so themselves, in writing. The most of them did not believe in Christ as savior. This country was not founded on that belief or the bible or the Christian religion.
    As for the many writers of the bible, they were merely inspired by their IDEA of God. This does not mean they actually knew the real God. Just who they thought he was.

    I agree that politics and religion should not mix, yet in a democracy, you cannot deprive religious people from voting or can you?


    In any case from reading all the answers and comments to Colleen's call, I noticed some very interesting/strong beliefs about who is a christian and who is not. Just for your info and hopefully some clarification here is a scholar in this field list of christian groups:


    Names of Christian Groups according to Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.


    One can also consider the wide variety of names by which Christian groups are called (some of which began as self-designations, while others were attributed by outsiders), and the meanings or derivations of these names. Some of the following are the names of early Christian sects, some are separate (mostly Protestant) denominations, and some are religious orders within the Roman Catholic Church (here's a longer list of Catholic Religious Orders).



    • Named for general characteristics: Orthodox (“right teaching”), Catholic (“universal”), Protestant (“protesting”), Gnostic (“knowledge”), Reformed, etc.

    • Named after founding figures:


      • Early Christian Sects: Valentinians, Montanists, Marcionites, Manicheans, Novatians, Arians, Nestorians, Donatists, Pelagians

      • Catholic Religious Orders: Benedictines (St. Benedict of Nursia), Franciscans (St. Francis of Assisi), Dominicans (St. Dominic Guzman), Viatorians (St. Viator), etc.

      • Protestant Denominations: Lutherans (Martin Luther), Calvinists (John Calvin), Mennonites (Menno Simons), etc.


    • Named by their founders after past religious figures:


      • Catholic Religious Orders: Jesuits, Paulists, Josephites, Marianists, Salesians, Sisters of St. Joseph, Society of St. Peter, etc.

      • Other Groups: Jansenists, Mormons


    • Named after places: Nazarenes, Albigensians, Carmelites, Carondelet Sisters, Cistercians, Marymount Sisters, etc.

    • Named after nations/cultures:  Roman Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Assyrian Apostolic Church, Byzantine Rite, Anglican (English-Catholic), etc.

    • Named after aspects of theology, ministry, or religious practice:


      • Early Christian Sects: Adoptionists, Docetists, Modalists, Monarchians, Monophysites, Subordinationists

      • Catholic Orders & Institutes: Holy Ghost Fathers, Legionnaires of Christ, Opus Dei, Redemptorists, Salvatorians, Sisters of Charity, Sisters of Mercy, etc.

      • Protestant Groups & Denominations: Episcopalians (<“bishops”), Presbyterians (<“elders”), Anabaptists (<“re-baptizing”), Assemblies of God, Baptists, Brethren, Disciples of Christ, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, Holiness Church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Methodists, Pentecostals, Puritans, Quakers, Salvation Army, Seventh Day Adventists, Unitarians, etc.


    Colleen

    Moderator
    They can vote as individuals but the church is not allowed to mandate how the individuals in their congregation can vote. It is also unlawful for them ( as a religion) to lobby for or financially back any bill that goes before state legislators or the house or congress. This is why they create groups that (wink, wink, are not "connected" to the church) that "act as individuals" but are actually controlled by the church and it's money. The Mormon church and some denominations of the Christian religion (can't remember which ones off hand as there are so many) were recently fined by the US Government for their involvement and financial support of the backing of Prop 8, the California bill that put discrimination into the California Constitution by reversing the law legalizing gay marriage in California and making it illegal.

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