leeroy
What were the Christian crusades?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-crusades.html
Answer: The crusades have provided some of the most frequent arguments against the Christian faith. Some Islamic terrorists even claim that their terrorist attacks are revenge for what Christians did in the crusades. So, what were the crusades and why are they viewed as such a big problem for the Christian faith?
First of all, the crusades should not be referred to as the “Christian crusades.” Most of the people involved in the crusades were not truly Christians, even though they claimed to be. The name of Christ was abused, misused, and blasphemed by the actions of many of the crusaders. Second, the crusades took place from approximately A.D. 1095 to 1230. Should the unbiblical actions of supposed Christians hundreds of years ago still be held against Christians today?
Third, not that this is an adequate excuse, but Christianity is not the only religion with a violent past. In actuality, the crusades were responses to Muslim invasions on what was once land occupied primarily by Christians. From approximately A.D. 200 to 900, the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Turkey was inhabited primarily by Christians. Once Islam became powerful, Muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and even murdered the Christians living in those lands. In response, the Roman Catholic Church and “Christian” kings/emperors from Europe ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken. The actions that many so-called Christians took in the crusades were still deplorable. There is no biblical justification for conquering lands, murdering civilians, and destroying cities in the name of Jesus Christ. At the same time, Islam is not a religion that can speak from a position of innocence in these matters.
To summarize briefly, the crusades were attempts in the 11th through 13th centuries A.D. to reclaim land in the Middle East that had been conquered by Muslims. The crusades were brutal and evil. Many people were forced to “convert” to Christianity. If they refused, they were put to death. The idea of conquering a land through war and violence in the name of Christ is completely unbiblical. Many of the actions that took place in the crusades were completely antithetical to everything the Christian faith stands for.
How can we respond when, as a result of the crusades, the Christian faith is attacked by atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and those of other religions? We can respond in the following ways: 1) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of people who lived 900+ years ago? 2) Do you want to be held accountable for the actions of everyone who claims to represent your faith? Trying to blame all of Christianity for the crusades is analogous to blaming all Muslims for Islamic terrorism.
Recommended Resource: Christianity Through the Centuries by Earle Cairns.
IN THE OLD TEST. WERE THE JEWS TOLD TO TAKE THE LAND THEY WERE PROMISED AND KILL THE INHABITANTS
AS CHRISTIANS WE ARE TAUGHT TO LOVE ARE ENEMIES. AND I TRY BUT SOMETIMES I THINK IF WE WERE TO KILL SAY 50 MILLION THE ONES LEFT WOULD BE EASIER TO LOVE
Depends where you are speaking of? Although this is not related to the question, let me say that most likely, all of the different cultures practiced relatively the same type of warfare during the time period in question. Why should we hold the present day Christians or Jews responsible for what their distant ancestor's did?
Because if that's the case we all are just as guilty as the next group. It seems if you look hard enough at a group of people you don't like or like, you will be able to dig up all sorts of dirt on peoples pasts.
I misunderstood your comment, sorry. People hold Christians to a higher standard than others sometimes. It's funny because we are exactly the same as the rest of the people, we just have Christ. The second a Christian makes a mistake or screws up, people are pointing fingers, or making sarcastic comments. Maybe they don't understand that we are all just people? I just try to be a better self, I don't try to be better than anyone else.
I don't think killing anyone would help??? I suppose you are just making a joke or being sarcastic. Anyone could tell you it a tough thing, to love an enemy.
11 Answers
FreedomFighter
There is nothing Christian about the Catholic church or the crusades. There is only one True Christian church, and the rest are demonic driven. The True Christian church was not started by any man or woman. It started in the upper room at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came into the apostles of Jesus. This has been going on ever since, and every True Christian has/will experience this. If the Holy Spirit has not revealed Himself personally to you, revealing Jesus, then your faith or religion is in vain. The Holy Spirit begins the New Creation work within us, and will teach and guide us from then on. The popes of the Catholic church reads like a made up movie for HBO. Most condoned sexual abuse with boys, yet disdained marriage. Many murdered others to reach popehood. They tortured all who refused to knuckle under to their abhorrent doctrines. They still try to uphold the Old Covenant and the priesthood, when it was done away at the cross with New Covenant. The Catholic church still continues to screw up people's lives, and most of the atheist's today are ex-Catholics. Does anyone blame them?
| 13 years ago. Rating: 3 | |
bluedeath
Although Leeroy is mostly right, I would argue "History states the expanding Muslim empire and their treatment of others was the immediate cause." is not correct because "History" states nothing. Individual historians have made that argument, but History is not a person, or a group of people, and is a dangerous statement in itself. Too many people have used that phrase and as a Historian, it just turns my ear! No offense, just sounding off.
As a Historian, I was also concerned about the idea of an expanding Muslim culture being blamed for the Crusades when it should be mentioned that before Isabella and Ferdinand kicked out the Jews and Moors, everyone including the Catholics lived together in peace in Spain.
As far as the Spanish Inquisition, the Church only went after Christians and Morisco's who claimed to be Christian, but were secretly still practicing Muslims. It had no jurisdiction over anyone who was not claiming to be Christian, contrary to popular literature and movies.
So to put it bluntly, Crusades were a "Just War" against non-believers who needed to be saved from their own beliefs, because that is what Christians did - they saved souls.
As far as the Inquisition, it was used as an investigative practice designed to once again save a soul. If that person asked for forgiveness and did not go back on his word, then the inquisition did its job. Interestingly enough, the inquisitors actually understood human mental conditions and sought to help people who were clinically insane. Others, they tried to reteach and to convince. Only those who refused, or were repeat offenders were put to death. One of the best monographs on that subject is a case study called, "Mad for God." It did a pretty good job of explaining how the Inquisitors did their job, and how the Inquisition worked over all.
As for the Crusades, check out the monograph, "The History of Christianity."
| 13 years ago. Rating: 3 | |
eggplant
leeroy
nomdeplume
Verily I say unto you 'give up your religion and live in peace with you fellow humans, respect the earth on which you live and forget the myths that you have been taught by those who try to control your minds'. Amen
| 12 years ago. Rating: 2 | |
witchway
FriendofGod
Jesus Himself warned us that false brethern and perverters of the gospel will be among the true CHristians. I have said this many times but the unbelievers do not care about the truth. Even the KKK and Hitler's Natzis claimed to be christian.
You will know them by their fruits, murderers are NOT christians. Haters are not Christians.
| 13 years ago. Rating: 2 | |
I personally am not ignoring what you call truth. What I know is the wars happened because of what verse in the bible called infidels and called for their deaths, so they believed they were doing as God bade them to do.
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5
I know leeroy and I know FoG wants to just wash it all away like the crusades had nothing to do with the bible or the religion but I believe they both were the foundation of the wars. Ill advised wars? Yes. But it's just the way they believed then and they were Christians.
(New thought because of what you said) Old testament then a new testament, an old covenant and a new covenant....
The path I follow has existed since before Christ and nothing in it has changed. No old, no new. Same, same. I'm just thinking out loud to show another reason why Christianity is not for me. Not trying to cause a new debate.
Then why not drop the O.T. all together? Apparently it was the God before he became the Jesus/God who ordered killings. Yet Jesus is God according to Christians which means before he descended to earth, he was God in the sky, the creator. Still makes him part of the O.T. in my opinion.
So everyone should just throw away the old testament then? At least that way you can really claim your God had no part in the killings. Not being a smart ass, just making a suggestion.
FoG, I don't believe God ordered any killings in the O.T. I think misguided men did or evil men did and claimed god told them to do so. No God of love and mercy would kill just because he's the boss. I'll never buy that.
That's up to the Christian religion to sort out. There are still so called Christians today the kill because they believe they are following the bible or God's word. Homosexuals have been killed because misguided Christians believe God hates them. Why not educate your own people? Take hate out of the bible, out of the religion, God loves the sin but hates the sinner. Some people can't differentiate between the two. Look at Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church (I know, not a christian but he uses the bible's belief of God hates homosexuality). GOD HATES FAGS he cries.
What does any religion that teaches the bible do about people like him who supposedly gets God's message all wrong? Why is it that so many see the evil side of Christianity? What causes that to be more prevalent than the good side? These are questions for the Jesus believers to answer and address. Christianity wants to be the leader or all religions because it proclaims it is the one, the truth, the way. Well start leading. Fix the people who are giving the bible a bad name. Don't just sit back and go, nope, not ours. We're different.
TEACH them, sort them out first, then believe you can teach others. Otherwise people will continue to pin the inquisitions, the witch hunts and the crusades on the Christian religion. New covenant or not.
I agree with you Colleen that it is hard saying but it is OT. God is Just and demands their be no other gods before Him. Nowhere in the NT did Jesus ever teach kill the infidels, that is what Mohamad said. So I don't know what was on the pope's mind, but it sure wasn't Jesus Christ. The Catholic church was hooked up with government and was on a power trip. I would not consider them christian.
Oh i believe it had to do with the bible and with religion as well as power in the government, it just wasn't christian as christian is defined by Jesus Christ.
God gave life and God has the right to take it away. God/Jesus ordered the killings in the OT, you are right Colleen. I will not try to defend God, I can only trust in His mercy.
Will there be a "new" covenant tomorrow? Is the bible Godsword if so isnt the word of God absolute? Who has the right to "change" Gods` word? No mere mortal surely. Sorry leeroy the arguement is flawed every which way.
That's the Old Covenant, times have changed since then, I don't think God expects us to do this now a days? There is a New Covenant these days.
The one who changed the Old Covenant was Jesus, the Son of God, so God has change the Old system of Law over to the New Covenant of forgiveness, through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
The Old covenant required blood of animals to cover the sins of the people, they were were held to the letter of the law. The New covenant had Jesus' blood to cover everyone's sin, there was now forgiveness for all sins through Jesus.
Some people do just carry the New Testament with them.
I have to agree with the logic of the statement above, anyone blaming all the past sins of "so called Christians," on the Christians of today, have a flawed logic going for them. Trying to stay on topic. To repeat what many have said, you cannot put all Christians into the same category, just as you cannot put any other group into one definition, if you do it, your have a stereotypical way of thinking.
Who's to say which person that claims to be Christian is a Christian or not? There is a vast difference between someone who practices what they preach, and one who doesn't.
Here is what Wickipedia lists as the initial cause for the crusades:
Immediate cause
The immediate cause of the First Crusade was the Byzantine emperor Alexios I's appeal to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist Muslim advances into territory of the Byzantine Empire. In 1071, at the Battle of Manzikert, the Byzantine Empire was defeated, which led to the loss of all of Asia Minor (modern Turkey) save the coastlands.
It was governments fighting over territory, who enlisted the Pope to his cause, who then offered forgiveness of sins to crusaders who died fighting in Jerusalem. This was motivated by propaganda and because of the attacks of Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land by Muslims. Just as the statement reads from a Christian perspective, WickipediA a secular source, the same information and more.
If it makes you feel better to vilify Christians, Muslims, Jews or Non-Christians of today for the acts of generations long past, (that is your choice.) There were non-Christians, Muslims, Christians, and Jews involved in the conflict, it wasn't just one group. History states the expanding Muslim empire and their treatment of others was the immediate cause.****
What does Bush, weapons or mass destruction, the Salem Witch trials, or anything else, have to do with "The Crusades?" Are you trying to make a big list of Christians who you don't like, or things you want to blame on Christians? What's with the stereotyping? If you want to talk about that kind of stuff open a new thread please, thanks.
| 13 years ago. Rating: 1 | |
The enemy otherwise known as the infidel for believing in another God. Sounds like Bush claiming weapons of mass destruction in order to attack another nation for his own agenda...just how I'm seeing it.
Holy war
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Holy war may refer to:
- A religious war led with an exceptionally high grade of religious feeling, such as The Crusades, 11th, 12th, and 13th-century religiously sanctioned military campaigns waged by much of Christian Europe against the Muslim Middle East.
Next up: Do you have an excuse for the Spanish inquisitions? Were they not true Christians either?
What about the witch hunts? Not Christians killing innocent women?
No worries. Today's Christian can not answer for Christians of the past. Just like I can not answer for Americans who owned slaves.
"Like I said before, you aren't discussing the question"
What was the question again? You changed the wording of the question. I was discussing the Crusades. Crusades is in the title. You are now going to get picky about intent? What was or is your intent then?
"History states the expanding Muslim empire and their treatment of others was the immediate cause."
The immediate cause. What was the rest of the cause? To kill and slaughter all those who would not convert to Christianity!
Deny them now as Christians. Then they were acknowledged as Christians and no, I do not blame you or any other living Christian for their misdeeds. I do however blame the Christian faith for leaving HATE in the bible. Like I said, God is said to hate sin, a bunch of people out there can not differentiate between hating the sin and hating the person. The church is failing in it's teachings. The bible is failing in getting the true message out to the people as it has apparently failed throughout history.
Does it not say in the bible you read from, God hates the sin but loves the sinner? Are those words in the bible because if they're not, then every last Christian needs to stop using that phrase and if it is, you need to own up to the fact by mere use of the word, hate is promoted. I'm saying as the wanna be leaders, lead. Correct those who get the bible wrong. Stand up to the ones who hate because they believe God OK's the hate. I'm still tangling with pina because she still thinks it's OK to judge me & call me names because her God hates my life. I can not teach her. I'm filth to her.
But yes, that's a whole other topic completely, isn't it? Nothing for you or any other Christian to worry over. No worries. I'll leave you to your thread, whatever it's about.
Yes but, it still doesn't have the fact that all the people involved in the war were claiming to be Christian. Personally I am not Catholic, nor do I consider The Catholic Faith to be truly Christian. Like I said before, you aren't discussing the question, if you want to discuss another issue open a thread.
To repeat, there were Non-Christians, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and others, You are still, by reading your comments holding the people of today responsible for things that happened thousands of years or hundreds of years ago responsible today. Next up you haven't proven anything.
And the reason that I don't agree is you are expecting Christians of today to answer for the possibly, or possibly not, Christians of the past.
When you talk about hate, I don't see any in my church, it's not failing it's one of the largest in the world. The reason is because they teach love.
You keep stereo typing Christians, that's inappropriate. I didn't change the question, I only added a statement after it. Please stick to the question, if you want to talk about the Salem trials or whatever else, start another thread.
<a href="/users/1011/peoplelover/">@PEOPLELOVER</a>, You can have any opinion you want, it never has bothered or offended me. I wouldn't waste my time reporting someone for not agreeing with me. I have never reported you on any issue, we usually agree with most topics. As for an agenda: It isn't my purpose to push any view in anyone, this is just a question. I only answered off subject when other people started commenting on other things.
If you have another historical record and researched view you would like to post, or just your opinion, you are more than welcome to do so. If anything I said personally offended you, I apologize.
When someone changes the subject, sometimes people will go off on that rabbit trail, "so to speak."
| 13 years ago. Rating: 1 | |
Just wondering what people thought the crusades actually were almost a thousand years ago? I have noticed a few comments about it?
| 13 years ago. Rating: 1 | |
Stories of Jesus are over 2000 years ago but all those stories are still help up against today's actions, so why not the crusades? You can deny the crusaders where Christian but in their time, they believed they were. An anointed Pope sanctioned the wars.
And I agree with your added thoughts also. I do not hold today's Christians responsible for the actions of old Christians but I still don't think Christians should forget their religions past and attack another religion that only the extremists use to kill through. We still have people today who use the bible to kill through.
I'm going to have to agree with the above statement. The flawed logic is that holding one group responsible for what their distant ancestors did a thousand years ago. It doesn't make much sense. If you apply this same reasoning to anyone of us, or any other group, you will have to have malice towards all humankind. If you have it at all.
Not to mention that some were Christian and many were not. There was aggression and killing from everyone's ancestors.
PEOPLELOVER
This is not, in my opinion, a legitimate question but an attempt by the said questioner to answer it by pushing their own barrow to furthher insult and vilify other religions that he/she and his/her cohorts do not agree with. In conclusion I have repeat HAVE reported my feelings to the moderators of this site for their assesment and action. If I get suspended AGAIN you will all know who to blame. Ask a question expand it a bit but don`t use it as a sermon please.
| 13 years ago. Rating: 1 | |
"People hold Christians to a higher standard than others sometimes"
I believe Christians put themselves there by feeling like only they will go to heaven. If they're going to lay claim to being God's chosen ones, then I will expect them to act higher and more Godlike than I, the one who will be going to hell. ; )